Heather Bayer:

So I'm really happy to have with me today to talk about Stay Wise's current issues with safety, and that's Justin Ford, the Director of Safety and Certification Programs at Breezeway. Somebody that I know very well, and somebody that I've heard speak on multiple occasions about safety in vacation rentals. And Justin is the person to help stay Wise cope with their current problems and take them into a safer future.

Welcome, Justin. Thank you so much for joining me.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah. It's great to be here. And last year, 2024, you and I did spend a lot of time together at a lot of different conferences. So I'm glad that you have me here.

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Heather Bayer:

I got to see you speak on several occasions and those talks that you give are so inspiring. I can't imagine anybody coming away from those and not going back to their businesses and taking immediate action. So that's the first thing I will say to everybody that is listening to this. If you get to a conference in 2025 that Justin is speaking, just forget the rest of what's going on, because you need to go to these.

This whole SSTIR Crazy thing started in 2023, because of you. You were the one that came out at the end of VRMA 2023, saying, What is happening in this industry, that people aren't paying attention to the foundational things that are at the core of our business; that's safety, sustainability, trust, insurance, regulations, and safety in particular. So thank you for bringing that to our attention to helping us kick off SSTIR Crazy 2024 and now the new and enlarged and much more exciting SSTIR Crazy 2025. And for those of you who are listening, if if you are not already on the leaderboard and gaining points for listening to these podcasts, and for attending the live events, make sure you go to the Show Notes and check that out, because it's never too late to enter.

And we've got some great prizes. So I'll leave that aside. You'll hear more about that later, after we've finished this discussion with Justin.

So Kicking this all off, Justin, you've made huge amounts of work for us and.....

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Justin Ford:

Sorry about that.

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Heather Bayer:

....we're enjoying every minute of it. So let's let's concentrate on what's happening with Stay Wise Rentals, our fictional property management company that is experiencing more in this five weeks of SSTIR Crazy Month that any property management company should ever experience in a lifetime. But we are condensing all this into five weeks. And we have a scenario for this week that occurred at Stay Wise and this can occur in anybody's home. They've got a call at two o'clock in the morning from a very distressed guest to say that his wife has got out of bed to go to the washroom in the middle of the night. She has tripped on the bedside rug. She's fallen, hit her head on the bedside cabinet, and she was taken to the emergency room where she was treated for concussion and also for some injuries to her wrist and to her ankle. Husband and the guest herself are really angry and there's been quite a bit of investigation following this and lots of things have come up.

And this is why I wanted to bring Justin along to help Stay Wise with their immediate problem and with what's coming in the future. Let's just kick off. Justin, with this tripping on this rug.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah.

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Heather Bayer:

I've seen your video where you walk through with a property manager and I can't remember who it was. You will remember who it was. And you've walked through..., it was a very large living room space and you immediately pointed out a trip hazard in the rug.

That's just one issue. What are the most common safety oversights that people have in vacation rentals? Tripping over a rug is one of them. Just expand on that and what others there

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Justin Ford:

Yeah. It's definitely slips, trips and falls. And that's generally what we see in society. Whether it's a commercial setting, or in a residential setting, people fall. That's human beings. We started out in the jungles and in the deserts and worked our way into homes. I'm sure we used to trip over tree branches in the woods and roots and things like that. Our bodies just weren't designed to move around freely and easily being so tall and vertical, whether you're four feet or like me, six foot five, you get up there and you're focused on where you're moving and looking straight ahead, we don't have eyes down by our feet and that's why we fall a lot.

I think one of the things to highlight right off the bat with this incident that's happened at Stay Wise; they didn't break any laws. They're not getting arrested. Nothing illegal has happened that these guests have fallen. And I think therein lies the problem. I'm not suggesting that they should be, but because they haven't broken any laws, they haven't prepared to make sure an incident like this wouldn't happen in their properties, cause they're focused on the things that they might break a law about.

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Heather Bayer:

That's such a great point, yes. And, I've experienced so many of these similar types of incidents in my 20 years of running a property management company. And that used to come up, there's no law against it.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah. There's no law against putting a carpet down in your short-term rental that's two inches thick and made of sheepskin and a bold trip hazard. And there's nothing against the law that you have to make some notification, or do things like this that, Hey, we've got really thick carpets in here and you're going to trip.

And, that's where the gap is in our industry. That's why we're here today and having this education. The real issue is obviously, got injured. We don't want them to get injured. The second issue is that there's been neglect. There has been negligence on the part of the property owner and manager. Not illegal negligence in the sense of the police are coming, the code enforcement officer is going to charge you with this. But on the civil side, hosts and managers have a duty of care responsibility to ensure that their properties are safe. And if they're not setting them up in a way that's safe, then they are negligent. The second issue is we got a potential lawsuit coming here.

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Heather Bayer:

Yeah, just go beyond that a bit. What sort of lawsuit could this be, and what ramifications would there be from that?

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Justin Ford:

Yeah, it's that there's a hazard. That's a potential hazard that's here. And that hazard has led to the injury of the guest and you may say, okay who's going to say that it's a hazard? Not me, but there are people like me in this industry. It's a two word, common word that you should be familiar with, it's called an expert witness. And there are people that are out there that are willing to testify against a property manager or a host and say, That should have been set up in a much safer way. It's common for people to focus on these things. Obviously this host or manager didn't focus on that and they created a hazardous situation for the guests to trip and fall. As a result, they were negligent. And I'm not going to say it. I'm going to point it out, from an educational point of view. But yeah, there's somebody out there that's going to come after him.

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Heather Bayer:

Yeah, absolutely. I've mentioned this many times that we went through this as a company and somebody sued us for negligence and it turned out to be a frivolous claim, but there was a lot of investigation that had to go into it and it was hugely stressful. So that actually put our focus back into that area of making sure that we mitigated all those potential risks. Because you can't stop people from saying, There was a loose rock and I tripped over it and I broke my knee. Which is what happened to us. But you can mitigate, you can lessen the risk of this happening.

Let's talk about safety audits because you do this all the time. This is what you do. What do you see most often that property managers are missing?

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Justin Ford:

I think a lot of property managers are missing walking through the property with the eyes of the guests. They're not taking into account that people are traveling a long distance. Often they're driving all day, they're tired, they're exhausted, and they've got a lot of things on their mind.

There's been a huge buildup to the vacation that's coming before them. They've been dealing with their boss and getting a report done right away. Setting up the dog sitter, making sure that's all set. Maybe if they're not bringing the kids, they've been working with their parents and traveling to drop the kids off. If the kids are coming with them, making sure they've got the medicine, all that stuff.

There's a lot of angst and buildup before someone goes on vacation. And then, when they arrive at the property, they want to get settled and they want to get settled fast. They want the steaks on the grill as quick as they can. They want to be in their bathing suit by the pool. They want their skis waxed up so they can go to the slopes. And so when they're coming into the property, their mind is on getting settled and getting ready in the property. And so what a lot of managers and hosts don't do is, they don't put themselves in those shoes.

I was at a rental property recently and it slept 16 people. And the driveway only fit three cars. And I said, do you guys ever have more than three cars here? And they said we don't know. I'm like, having 16 people show up in three cars is a lot, but you're filling your driveway. So how did the guests get from their car into the front door?

When the driveway is completely filled with cars, they're going to have to walk on the grass and get around. And they'd never gone through that scenario and thought about it. Yet when we say this, it's so obvious. Why haven't we thought about what that arrival is like and what that guest experience is like.

So I think that's the 101, that's where we've got to go back and start.

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Heather Bayer:

Yeah, and you make an interesting point, because I look back on my experience and we got the most issues happening on day one/overnight into day two. And I don't know where that expression 'vacation brain' came from, but I love it. And I've been there. I've been in vacation brain. Going to a property in the Bahamas years ago, and we were so excited to arrive, but we arrived late. It was dark by the time we got there. Everybody wanted a glass of wine. We're here on vacation. Let's have a few drinks and let's go and sit in the pool and look at the stars. And it was wonderful. Then we all stumbled off to bed and then there was a power outage overnight, and woke up in the middle of the night and there was just nothing. I could not remember where the bathroom was. And, everybody's stumbling around in the dark and it's things like that you just don't think about when you're setting a property up.

And going back to these rugs, which Stay Wise have got in 80 percent of their properties, they have got vacation brain people arriving at every one of their properties and perhaps getting up in the middle of that first night really disoriented as to where they actually are.

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Justin Ford:

I went and stayed with a company many years ago and they had a quote. I've never seen this anywhere else. It's a quote everyone should adopt in this industry. And their quote was "We anticipate the unforeseen so you don't have to". And that's a motto that everyone who operates a short-term rental should be thinking, is that you've gone in and anticipated all the problems that could happen, so that the guests don't have to think about those things and relax.

And I think they were more thinking that motto of, We've got y'all set with your pool floats and your tickets to the local ski resort. But I'd like to transition that over to making sure that's addressing how you are arriving at the property and your safety. Anybody who's listening can steal that and make that their company motto, cause that's what it should be.

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Heather Bayer:

I love that. Let's move on a little bit to the response. We can do the safety audits and have everything in place, but the next thing is, if something can still happen, how important is having response protocols and knowing how to respond in a certain situation?

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Justin Ford:

You've got to have that in play. I can't tell you how many companies have called me. To be honest with you, it's the most challenging part of my job. I'm an educator. I'm there to help ensure that people don't have a situation. And I get so many people that call me going, Hey, we know you do this education and we're definitely going to listen to you more now, because we've just had an incident. But anyway, how do we deal with this?

And I'm like, You can't operate that way. I'm not the after guy. I'm the before guy to make sure that doesn't happen for you. And so I think what a lot of people need to do is have those protocols in place. If there's a fire at our property, if there's an injury at our property, any of that type of stuff needs to be addressed.

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Heather Bayer:

And everybody needs to know what to do in a certain situation. So what key elements should be included in, let's call it a safety SOP? So that would then avoid confusion during emergencies, because going back to Stay Wise, this was the night manager got this call...

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Justin Ford:

Yeah.

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Heather Bayer:

...and had no idea what to do, who to call, what to say to a guest, that should be...

Yeah.

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Justin Ford:

So that's standard protocol....

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Heather Bayer:

in there too?

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Justin Ford:

Yeah, that should be in there. You should know if it's okay to say that. Oh my gosh, we're so sorry that's happened. I think there's a lot of people out there that are scared if they say they're sorry. That's admitting some sort of neglect. And maybe you have an attorney who advises you that. Okay let's have that in your S. O. P. But generally speaking, I believe it's okay to say, I'm terribly sorry that this experience has happened to you. You're not admitting fault, but you're empathizing that this is a really tough situation and you're starting down this path of what we're going to do to help you.

And in the case of a guest being injured, I think it's absolutely critical that you understand as much of the facts about what happened as soon as you can. But, not until you make sure that the guest is in an area where they're getting the care they should need, and if they haven't gone to the hospital already, encouraging them to go to the hospital, making sure that, they've been checked out if they're at the hospital making sure that there's any other guests that are at the house that might need a ride to the hospital. Maybe if they went by ambulance they couldn't have joined them. So offer that someone from the staff can come over and give them a ride so they can be there, were there any doors left unlocked in the house? If you've all left to go to the hospital, what's the situation with the house? We'll send one of our staff over right now to secure the house. So you want to get things in place to understand how you're going to manage this incident and there's step by step down that line. And as you've alluded to, you've got to have all that designated ahead of time.

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Heather Bayer:

Yeah, I think that is so important. Look, so many companies are now using offshore virtual assistants to manage things that go on in the middle of the night. And to ensure that they have all that information, they know how to deal with something, then it's really a no-brainer to have a standard operating procedure that says, under these types of circumstances, this is what you need to do in a step by step way.

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Justin Ford:

And it's okay if you do have offshore people responding, but just make sure they understand that this is now an emergency situation. This is one of those reasons that the offshore people need to now notify the local property managers.

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Heather Bayer:

Let's carry on from that a little bit with staff training; what role does staff training play? Because in my role as an educator, I know that training doesn't play a huge role in the operations of most property management companies. It's something that's done ad hoc. When we need to, we'll train somebody on using this software we'll give them a little bit of information on certain situations that might arise and how to deal with them, how to deal with calls. But staff training doesn't seem to be a major thing.

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Justin Ford:

Our industry is horrible, Heather. It really is. And if you think about it in comparison, imagine if airlines weren't doing safety training. Imagine if the cruise ships hadn't checked their lifeboats in a long time, and imagine if you went to a hotel and they didn't know what to do in a major incident.

Every other form of lodging hospitality in the world has consistent and regular training. And a lot of times in the short-term rental industry, I'm willing to go so far. I don't have this as a stat, but I'm going to go this far based on what I've seen in our industry. I'm willing to bet 99. 9 percent of professional managers out there are not doing regular weekly safety training.

I know of two companies that do it weekly. Hopefully there's a couple more, that I don't know of, that they do. They have regular training. They record it. If some of their staff aren't there, they can rewatch it. Whether it's a 10 minute safety training, or it's 30 minutes on guest services, or it's 20 minutes on focusing on some new cleaning techniques they want to do.

But you've got to have regular training. It's negligent not to, I can't imagine why people are doing that.

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Heather Bayer:

So I've seen you out and about, because you do show videos and you talk about going out to visit with property management companies and go out and look at properties and give them recommendations. Now, you are just one person in a sea of property management companies. If a company is not able to bring Justin Ford in....

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Justin Ford:

Right.

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Heather Bayer:

....to actually be with them and point out the safety issues that may be there, how can they bring themselves up to speed in terms of safety?

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Justin Ford:

The first thing they need to do is get safety certified, take a safety course. Obviously Breezeway, we offer one for the industry, but they need to be well versed in understanding all the different types and things that go on with a home and understand how they operate and be able to make sure they're sharing that type of information with their guests in a way that makes sense.

And so the first thing to do is, to summarize, is you've got to be aware of how things work. You need to know what the difference is between an ionization and a photoelectric smoke alarm. And you need to know what egress means and how your guests gets out. If you don't know those three things, then you're way behind.

If you know more about ADR and AI than you do about photoelectric and ionization, you have skipped some really important steps and you are bound for trouble. You're bound for a massive wake up call one day, and in the way that this is the two in the morning phone call from a guest going, Hey, we've had an incident here. People are hurt, or even worse, people have died. What are you going to do? And who's your lawyer because mine's going to be calling yours.

So yeah, you've got to sit there and say, we got to get back to the basics. And how do we start this company in a way that we are more aware of what our product is and what we need to do to make sure our guests are safe in it.

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Heather Bayer:

Yeah. I've done the safety course and realized that I really need to do a refresher on that. But I learned so much from that. And, you talk about egress. I think I knew what egress was. It's nothing to do with with anything that flies. It's egress,

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Justin Ford:

Right.

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Heather Bayer:

E G R E S S, and interestingly enough, there's so much I did on that safety course, when I scroll through images of living areas and kitchen areas and bedrooms in particular, I'm immediately drawn to things like bunk beds covering those windows.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah.

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Heather Bayer:

Or bunk beds without proper railings, or with a mattress that's too high. The amount of material and content in that course was so easily digestible. In fact, but it broadened my knowledge so much, and I know from others who took it that they've come away going, Oh my gosh, I had no idea about these things.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah, you've got to know where the hazards are in our industry. You need to know that last year, 2024, there were over a thousand reported fires from ceiling fans in bathrooms, because people aren't cleaning them. You need to know that over 100 children drown in pools at short-term rentals because we didn't have them set up safely.

You need to know that the number one pediatric injury for children under the age of 10 is furniture tip overs and TV tip overs. And you need to know that those type of things need to be secured. And that's a base knowledge that everyone in this industry, whether you're in guest services, you're a cleaner, you're a maintenance person, or you're a reservationist, you need to know those things, because every facet of our industry is going to hit those touch points.

The reservationist could be selling that. Hey, You've got young kids, just so you know, we've focused on making sure all the dressers and the TVs are secured and maintenance needs to know. So these are all core things that everybody needs to know in this industry and understand where those risks are.

And you can talk to me, you can talk to what you're doing, but it's out there, you just have to hop online and you can see the media reports as well.

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Heather Bayer:

One thing that I touched on in a previous topic in the Crazy Month was trust. I talked to Chris Maughan of I-PRAC and we talked about websites because Stay Wise have an issue with their website being negatively seen.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah.

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Heather Bayer:

And we talked in there about having separate pages, having a page on safety, having a page on trust, and having a page on sustainability, so that guests can actually see. If you're doing something that's good with safety, then broadcast it and share that.

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Justin Ford:

Yes. Airbnb does it. Vrbo does it. Marriott does it, Carnival Cruise Lines does it, Delta does it. They all have a commitment to safety page on their websites. And so very few in our industry do. I can think of just a handful of companies that have that commitment to safety. And I know people look at that stuff and go, Hey, I don't know, I haven't even heard the word safety anywhere with this company. I'm not sure I want to stay with them. And people think that's hollow, but it's not. We see it all the time. Last year, the biggest stat that I shared with the industry is something we need to pay close attention to. And it was a nugget out of a survey that said 62 percent of people who have never stayed in a rental, the reason they haven't is a concern of safety.

Can you imagine, all those people out there that aren't even considering our product that we're not even marketing to? They're going to go stay at a Hyatt Resort or a Hilton Resort before they're going to choose a short-term rental, because they don't think they're safe.

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Heather Bayer:

Yes, yeah, and you think about standing out from the competition, it doesn't have to be the biggest and best outdoor play area. It could simply be, we're safer than them.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah, Stay Wise needs their commitment to safety page and they need to stand behind it and there's no doubt about that. I hope they get that in order as soon as possible. As soon as they get this guest injury taken care of.

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Heather Bayer:

Following up from it they're going to have to deal with these rugs that they've got in every one of their properties that doesn't have a non-slip backing. But they are also going to have to deal with communicating with their owners regarding safety upgrades and shared responsibilities for addressing hazards. How should they do that communication?

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Justin Ford:

You know, one of the things that I've done a lot of work with lately with our companies we do a webinar, we actually do a webinar to the owners and it's the agency that does it, that says, Hey, we're going to talk to you about what our commitment is at safety at our company. And I often tell people that if you've got a homeowner that doesn't want to get on board with you, when it comes to safety, go find other ones that do, and use them to lift the others up, showcase them. When you do an owner newsletter, point out the homeowner that's got the new..., they just changed all their new smoke alarms and they've got new carbon monoxide alarms and they went through a rigorous safety audit and they're great. And by the way, their bookings are up nine points. Do things to highlight the successes of that.

So owners newsletters or owner webinars with your property owners, anything you can do, give your annual homeowner of the year award to somebody and highlight because, they've put a better pool fence in and invested in new pool arms around their property. And they're committed to making sure that guests are safe there. Any of that type of stuff that you can utilize when you're communicating to your homeowners to highlight the best, will bring up those those who aren't necessarily as committed.

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Heather Bayer:

Yes. You made a great point there just about focusing and spotlighting those owners who have made inroads into better safety practices and, sharing that with everybody. We used to do a webinar for our owners. I don't think we were as consistent with it as we should have been, but I think now, if I was going back and redoing my time as a property manager, that video or webinar would have been something that would have gone to every new owner with the encouragement that they watched that before they signed up with us, so that they knew what was going on. What safety in vacation rentals was all about, because I think there's a lot of owners that come in who are not necessarily these investors who are just going to hand it straight over to a property manager and say, do what you will with it. But there are those who've perhaps had their second home for years and now need to make some money and they're a little bit more reluctant to make those changes because it might affect the aesthetics if they take up a rug and replace it with something else. Having that webinar video to share with them is a really great idea.

What what else would you recommend for Stay Wise to take them forward after this really distressing incident.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah. So in addition to having training and making sure that they're all set to go, they want to understand insurance. And insurance...., I know you've been talking to Nick with Proper Insurance, love Proper, but one of the things that you've got to do is understand what happens in any of these scenarios when it comes to insurance.

A lot of people just assume that when an incident happens, they're going to call their insurance company and they're going to deal with it. But don't understand that if there's certain things that have been done, for example, if the guest who tripped over the carpet, if they fell down the stairs and there wasn't a handrail, it may be that insurance isn't going to come in and cover that, because they should have had a handrail.

So they need to understand under each circumstance of types of incidents that can happen at the property, what type of backing they're going to have from the insurance company and understand scenarios where the insurance company is not going to step in. That's another thing that they've got to really focus on.

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Heather Bayer:

Yeah years ago, going back 10 years, right at the very beginning of this podcast, and I talked to an insurer in England and we had this long conversation. I think when I look back on it, it's 40 minutes just talking about what negligence actually means. if you can be proved to be negligent in any way, that is your first stumbling block. You might have done absolutely everything that you think is perfect, but if they find you negligent. And one of the areas, and I know we've had this discussion before about kayaks and watercraft, our property management company, we didn't have rentals nearby. Places where you could rent kayaks, so our owners did provide them. However, every piece of watercraft, had to have its own safety kit. So it had to have this orange..., and I'm sure you're aware of those little orange containers, that have a flashlight, but that flashlight has a battery. And then there's a rope, and there's a whistle. So you've got the baler, the light, the rope, the whistle. And negligence, as this was explained to me, negligence would be to me, you've got your container, everything's in it, but the flashlight doesn't work because the battery's got wet. Something as simple as that.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah. Negligence that I explained to property managers all the time. Cause a lot of them are concerned. Gosh, now that we know how to do these safety inspections and we're talking about doing it, are we negligent if something happens? And I'm like, no you're not negligent if an accident happens, we know carpets can cause tripping issues. We've moved all the carpets in such a way that no one could trip. And yet still this happened. That's not negligence. You've done everything you could to prepare for it. An accident has happened. Negligence is, We had no idea. I didn't know that. We didn't know that people could trip on carpets.

That's not having that knowledge. You're a professional vacation rental manager in the industry of hospitality, and you didn't know that. There's so many resources out there for you and if you're not taking advantage of those resources, you are negligent.

So not watching Heather and I right now, that's negligent, because that opportunity is there for you. And if instead you're watching a rerun of Yellowstone, then you are being negligent by not paying attention to understand more about this industry.

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Heather Bayer:

That's not to say you should not be watching reruns of Yellowstone.

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Justin Ford:

Yeah,

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Heather Bayer:

Just you do that at another time.

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Justin Ford:

That's right.

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Heather Bayer:

Justin, as ever, you've provided just great information. We will continue to pile this home. Try and get people to listen and to do stuff, to find it interesting. We've talked about what Stay Wise should do, what should our audience be doing? What should they be really thinking about after this episode and after hearing what's happened with Stay Wise?

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Justin Ford:

I think they should be saying, can I go to sleep tonight? Knowing that I feel like my guests are gonna be safe in the property the way that they've set it up. And if they feel that way in their heart, they can close their eyes and go, You know what? Yeah. My guests are all good. If there's a fire tonight, they're good.

If they're walking around that property in darkness to go to the bathroom, they're not going to trip unless they've dropped the banana peel themselves on the floor. You can do that then you're good, you're all set. But if you can't do that, if there's even the slightest hesitation, I don't know.

Maybe, I remember we'd talked about putting a new light in and, yeah, I can't remember if that smoke alarm ever got a battery put back in it. If you can't do that, then you need to get up and take some action, cause you're not going to sleep.

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Heather Bayer:

I remember, shortly after we first met Justin and to some degree it, it changed the way I looked at my business. I remember changing the way I went out and looked at new properties. And I would drive up and from way before the driveway, I would put myself into the role of the guest. I'm a guest arriving here, what am I seeing? What am I experiencing? And as I went round the property, and I would try and do two passes through it, and have one pass on my own, without anybody accompanying me, and just do it feeling as a guest, but adding into that, the aesthetics, but also, am I going to be safe here? And that, if that's a tip from me, I hope you take it because it is one that changed my practice of acquiring new properties and some properties, after a discussion with the owner, we just turned down because they were not prepared to consider going forward with the changes I wanted them to make.

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Justin Ford:

I think that's a great thing to close on because I think that the really good point there is that yes, we're talking about safety today. But safety is the core at which everything branches out from. I know house cleaners now that are better house cleaners because of the focus they have on safety and they do a better job with It. I know inspectors and maintenance people that do a better job now and the houses have less trouble, because of a focus on safety.

So if you start with that and have that eye of intensely looking at the property and thinking about how it's going to be used. It's going to help manage all kinds of other challenges across the property you have that you'd never considered it would help improve before. I think you'll agree with me that for both of us, that's helped in that way.

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Heather Bayer:

Exactly. Justin, always an absolute pleasure to have you on the show and more so in this special safety week of SSTIR Crazy Month. Thank you so much.

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