Mike Bayer
You're listening to the Vacation Rental Success Podcast, and we don't have a sponsor for our episode in March for a very important reason. We need your help.

Mike Bayer
In Canada, short-term rentals are under attack from regulations being imposed by legislators, including a full ban in the province of British Columbia. These decisions are being made based on biased reports with inaccurate data generated by lobbyists from competing industries.

Mike Bayer
In an effort to make our voices heard and start the conversation with top-level decision-makers, the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference is happening April 20th to the 22nd in Banff, Alberta. This is the first time in the history of short-term rentals across the world has an event like this, and on this scale, been created so property managers, individual owners, and other stakeholders can have their say out from the shadow of Airbnb. This event may be focused on Canada, but if we don't all stand up and support this initiative, your local legislators could follow the lead of these Canadian regulations that will find their way to your tourist area.

Mike Bayer
We need you to attend. We need you to share this message, and we need you to get involved. Visit canstaysrentalalliance.com to book your ticket and join the fight for our right to a fair and responsible future for the short-term rental industry. If you need extra incentive to book, use the coupon code VRF100 to take $100 off your ticket. Also, check the CanStays website for discounts on flights with WestJet.

Mike Bayer
Without further delay, let's get to today's episode. Here's your host, Heather Bayer.

Heather Bayer
Today's episode is a panel discussion with Jayne McCaw from Jayne's Cottages, Catherine Ratcliffe from Lost Together Stays, and the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference, and Orion Rodgers from Property Rights, BC. And we're going to be talking about regulations, legislation, and how you can make a difference.

Heather Bayer
This is the Vacation Rental Success podcast, keeping you up to date with news, views, information, and resources on this rapidly changing short-term rental business. I'm your host, Heather Bayer, and with 25 years of experience in this industry, I'm making sure you know what's hot, what's not, what's new, and what will help make your business a success.

Heather Bayer
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Vacation Rental Success podcast. This is your host, Heather Bayer. And as ever, I am super delighted to be back with you once again. Well, this is the last recording I am doing from my winter home down here in Gulf Shores, Alabama. I will be heading home to Canada in the next few days. It takes four days to drive home, four days, three night stop, and I'll be doing a lot of work on the way, no doubt, because we are building something exciting and something new, which you'll be hearing about in the coming weeks.

Heather Bayer
I want to go straight into today's episode. Today's is a panel, and we're talking about regulations and legislation. I know we did this a few weeks ago when we talked to Rolf Blizzard of Atlantic Realty, but this time we are exploring the Canadian market. Now, don't turn your sound down or turn this podcast off, because what's being discussed here is absolutely relevant to everybody in this industry. It's simply that the legislation that's come down from the British Columbian Province, provincial legislation, has been so onerous and has provoked so much anxiety amongst property managers and property owners, that we wanted to bring together a representative from Property Rights BC, another from an Ontario property management company, and that's Jayne McCaw from Jayne's Cottages, and together with Catherine Ratcliffe, who most people know now, I think Catherine has been to just about every conference. She has talked to just about everybody in the industry by now to tell them about the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference that takes place in Banff in April, April 20-22. We'll be bringing together government representatives, together with property managers and owners to discuss what is happening in the rental business. And it's the rental business worldwide, as I say, not just in Canada. So without further ado, let's go on over to our panel and hear this great discussion on regulations and legislation.

Heather Bayer
Well, welcome to this slightly unusual podcast this week, because this is a panel of people. Usually, you're hearing me talking to just one person. This time, I have three joining me. I have Catherine Ratcliffe from Lost Together Stays and the Organizer of the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference. We'll be talking about that. We have Orion Rodgers, who is from Property Rights, BC, and also a property manager in his own right, and welcoming back Jayne McCaw, who has been on the podcast before. Jayne is the President of Jayne's Cottages in Muskoka, Ontario.

Heather Bayer
I am just so delighted to have you all with me. This is going to be a great conversation as we talk about regulations and legislation. Some weeks ago I talked to Rolf Blizzard from Atlantic Realty, and he is Co-Chair of the Government Relations Committee for VRMA. He was talking about the importance of networking and getting in touch with politicians and decision-makers. I've heard from people since who said, I didn't think I could do that. I didn't think I could get in front of these people and have them listen to me. Well, this is what we're going to be talking about today. I want to start by asking my panel here to briefly introduce themselves, tell us what their role is, and why this topic is so important with you. I'm going to start with Orion, because what's happening in BC is just huge right now.

Orion Rodgers
Yeah. Thank you, Heather. My name is Orion Rodgers. I started a company called Coast and Host Vacation Rentals. We've been operating short-term rentals here in Victoria, Vancouver Island since 2014. This is going to be 10 years this year. So definitely I've cut my teeth on this one, been through the pandemic, learned to strategize and keep everyone happy and safe through that. But we are facing a new unprecedented time against regulations from British Columbia and the provincial government. So on that front, we started a Property Rights Association, framed as a Property Rights Association with a big focus on advocating for short-term rentals, recognizing that people have been operating lawfully with business licenses, with zoning under municipal by-laws, and that those people are now having their property rights, essentially the carpet, pulled out from under them.

Heather Bayer
We're going to come back and talk about what happened way back in, I think, October time and what's happened since. But let's just go over to Jayne. A quick introduction from you.

Jayne McCaw
Sure. I'm Jayne McCaw. I started Jayne's Cottages, which has now changed to Jayne's Luxury Rentals in 2014 as well. I have around 300 properties in Ontario. The STR legislation, bans, and new township's taking on STR regulations is very active in this part of the world.

Heather Bayer
Yeah. Just before we went on air, I was talking to Orion, just saying how different it was in Ontario. Whereas BC is going for provincial legislation, and Ontario is this fragmented whack-a-mole style, and we'll come back and chat about that. But let's just go over to Catherine. Catherine, welcome back. You and I talk a lot, particularly about the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference. But just introduce yourself to those who perhaps don't know you.

Catherine Ratcliffe
Sure. My name is Catherine Ratcliffe, and I'm originally from Ottawa, Ontario....

Heather Bayer
Catherine, your sound is not great to me. I don't know whether it's worthwhile you going out and coming back in again. That might be a good idea if you can do that. But in the meantime, let's just go back to Orion and ask you about the regulatory landscape in BC. What happened? Give us this little Cook's Tour of... Cook's Tour, that is an English expression. Thomas Cook.

Orion Rodgers
I have a wife from Liverpool, so I'm very privy to all sorts of new terminology, especially Scouse.

Orion Rodgers
Yeah, so where were we? Some municipalities had regulations and by-law and licensing. It seems from our investigations that there was a bit of problematic issues there with enforcement and compliance. And with that, there was advocacy up to the province from municipal level with support of hotel industry, various tourism boards, with the framing of the housing issue that we're having across the country. And that's a political talk that I don't want to get too much down the road on, but we're having issues with housing. Short-term rentals are taking away housing. That's how this has been framed. So the provincial government has come with a suite of new housing initiatives.

Orion Rodgers
One of them is short-term rental regulations, which are in some of the municipalities, actually what has already been going on, but province wide have come down very strict, essentially, because many didn't have it. The big one that we talk about is the legal nonconforming rights provision, amending the Local Government Act and removing that provision protecting properties that had short-term rental business license that have been operating a business, regardless of zoning changes or municipal changes over the last three to five years.

Orion Rodgers
And with that, we are losing a significant amount of short-term rental stock. Short-term rentals are being pushed back into the principal residence. So you need to reside in your home and you could do your basement suite or you could do some rooms in your house.

Heather Bayer
Can we just go back onto legal nonconforming rights? Because I've read this over and over again, and don't quite understand. And I'm sure there are people who are thinking, what does that mean?

Orion Rodgers
Right. So legal nonconforming is where at one point you're operating a business of some capacity, and it could be for other things, for building, but we use this in a business term. So you're operating a business, and the area that you're working in or operating in has been up-zoned or down-zoned out of the zoning that you've been utilizing. Because of legal nonconforming at the local government act level, your rights to continue to operate still stand. What the provincial government does has amended that, that for short-term rental purposes, you now no longer have that legal nonconforming status. So your business that you've been doing has to be reverted back into whatever property or business or tangible asset it should be or should've been.

Heather Bayer
Okay, that's great. Jayne, you and I worked..., I worked with you in Ontario for most of those years from 2014. You became a member of the Ontario Cottage Rental Managers Association, and we connected there. I know you became so active in this area, really during COVID, and lobbying the provincial government when they made some really weird decisions on who should shut down and who shouldn't. But that's probably not a discussion for today. But you have that experience now of addressing these things. How different are the challenges you faced compared with what Orion is facing in BC?

Jayne McCaw
Yeah. So your big thing, or Orion's big thing, is the housing shortage. And we operate in Ontario, primarily the OCRMA, which is the Ontario Cottage Rental Managers Association. Cottages mostly mean recreational vacation properties. We're not operating in urban centers. And we've been very successful of late as the Township of Muskoka Lakes is looking at putting in legislation, to convince them that with a TICO [Travel Industry Council of Ontario] license, so a travel agency license, and for writing a test and making sure we understand that we're protecting the consumer, as well as having a legal trust account, that we are operating in the best behalf of the stakeholders that we're dealing with.

Jayne McCaw
Anyways, we are licensed to run accommodation services for the Province of Ontario, and now the municipality is starting to listen to that. So anyways, Heather, back to the OCRMA, which I have a meeting with today right now, so I'll be going in there shortly. But I'm trying to convince them to be able to broaden our membership to individual owner operators, to be able to be [members], because they cannot be licensed by TICO, because they're renting out their own property. But I do believe that if we can get them an OCRMA membership, we're going to have some status.

Jayne McCaw
Right now, the Township of Muskoka Lakes has asked the OCRMA to help them rewrite their draft of the short-term rental, because they understand how important tourism is and vacation rentals. That's what's going on here.

Heather Bayer
I found it so interesting when I was still CEO of CottageLink Rental Management, that it was like a whack-a-mole. Every day, another township would decide that they were going to jump on the bandwagon and create some legislation, and they'd pick pieces from everybody else's. So really, no two townships or municipalities have exactly the same thing. I know you operate in a number of different townships/municipalities, so that must be a little bit of a challenge for you, because you don't just operate in the Township of Muskoka Lakes.

Jayne McCaw
Right now, the province has no interest in doing what BC has done. They do not want to get involved in this, but we don't have a crisis like you do, and we didn't have a [rental property] fire like in Québec and stuff like that.

Heather Bayer
It's interesting talking to Rolf Blizzard from Atlantic Realty a couple a few weeks ago, and he said, If this is not impacting you now, it will. It will impact you at some point in the future. I know OCRMA will be looking at that. We'll be looking at the fact that province may not be interested now, but with a change of government, perhaps at some point in the future, it may.

Heather Bayer
Catherine, let's just come over to you, because in your work with the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference, you've spent a lot of time on what the impact of regulations has on locations, on communities, on their tourism, on the way they carry out their travel and tourism promotions. What have you discovered in terms of how the regulations across the board impact different segments of our rental population, people with diverse needs.

Catherine Ratcliffe
Yeah, I think it's been really interesting to dig into a lot of the access to care issues, particularly, again being from Ottawa, my mom was a nurse at CHIO, and so they frequently had people driving 10 hours in because their child needed to be admitted to the hospital. And they had something that was going to impact an episode of health care where provinces have to provide accommodations or reimburse accommodations for that type of travel. And a lot of times when you're dealing with illnesses where you've got immunosuppression, you're not looking to stay in a hotel, because you don't want to interact with individuals that could compromise an already difficult health care incident.

Catherine Ratcliffe
Then you've got folks that are accessibly challenged that an ADA accommodation in a hotel is not sufficient to be able to just stay at one of those hotels and they're trying to travel for work or for health care access or to make memories the way the rest of us do on vacations.

Catherine Ratcliffe
And so looking at all of the different forms of travel use...., we've had insurance displacements, which can often happen in an urban center where.... I'm a victim of that. My daughter flooded my entire house running a bath, and we had to move out for a few weeks. And so looking at that trickle down effect of what happens then, if the property insurance has to pay for hotel accommodation versus a short-term rental. And again, sometimes that's a longer stay. Sometimes it's a week or 14 days. So looking at all of those different impacts, I think there's been some gaps in the narrative, because while there is housing shortages, not just in BC, there's housing shortages all over the place. And I think the cost of acquiring a home is also a challenge for many people, and those are very real problems. I think in many instances, we can be part of the solutions. There's been interesting data around folks that have traveled from, I say short-term rental to short-term rental, but the article says Airbnb to Airbnb, because they can't afford to get approved for a mortgage or they're new Canadians and they haven't had the credit status to be able to get a long-term rental. But they can get the short-term approval from an Airbnb, and they can stay week to week because it's $65 a night in Winnipeg or wherever they are, and that they can accommodate.

Catherine Ratcliffe
So I think there's a lot of items that are different. I don't think there's any two stories that are identical across the country. As I've spoken with people from BC, out to the Maritimes, and up to the Yukon, I think one of the most interesting stories was from Neighbourly [sic] North, Ben [Pereira]. On his website, he actually talked about the number of babies that have been born coming through his short-term rentals. And the first time I read that, I did a double take. I thought, wait, what? Does he have a short-term birthing center? But it was because of that access to health care. And those are very uniquely positioned discussions that need to take place when you're talking about either a provincial-wide ban the way BC is looking at. And then also on the federal level, when we're talking about some of these budget adjustments that they're looking at relative to the GST and other deductions and understanding this is an attack on one specific industry. If you look at what Orion is talking about regarding the legal use of your property, that can easily turn into somebody who's a CPA working out of a home, or who's a licensed daycare, those types of things.

Catherine Ratcliffe
There are other industries that can work out of a home. I think it's important to open that discussion and maybe not always look at it from the lens of just a short-term rental, because these regulations, they set a precedent for other types of industries.

Heather Bayer
Yeah, exactly. You have Lorraine Woodward speaking at the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference. Do you want to just tell us who Lorraine is and what she'll be talking about?

Catherine Ratcliffe
Yes, we're very excited. So Lorraine will be coming virtually, because of the accessible challenges, the challenges in accessible accommodations. And we're working very closely with the hotel to see about the other individuals that are anxious to attend as well that are coming in from the ALS Association and Muscular Dystrophy, because these are all Canadians that are looking for representation that are hoping to travel and to be able to have the same rights and freedoms that the rest of us do.

Catherine Ratcliffe
Lorraine's platform, Becoming RentABLE, is an amazing opportunity for people to destigmatize what they believe accessible accommodations are. Having had a mother-in-law who had ALS and a mother who is in a wheelchair, these are hugely impactful topics to be able to understand when you're looking at what an accessible accommodation means to somebody who's traveling with a child with autism versus somebody who needs a Hoyer lift to be able to use the restroom and that sort of thing. These are real challenges for people who want to be able to work, looking at the reduction in health care spend if we're able to safely discharge to a short-term rental that is nearby a hospital facility. So Lorraine has pulled amazing data and statistics,  and if there's somebody who's really going to open the eyes of the attendees, it's going to be Lorraine. I'm so grateful for her support and help with this.

Heather Bayer
She's a very dynamic lady. And I'll make sure... I did interview Lorraine on the podcast a while back, and I'll make sure that we have that in the Show Notes for anybody who wants to listen to a bit more about what Lorraine is saying.

Heather Bayer
I want to talk now about taking action, because following my conversation with Rolf Blizzard, I began to really think about how people take action. I know...., Jayne, in Ontario there's all sorts of small associations being set up. There's the Tiny Township Association. There was, of course, the Oro- Medonte Association and then the Georgian Bay. How are you and these groups actually taking action and engaging with stakeholders? Because I've seen on some Facebook groups, just a lot of people making complaints, and not a huge amount about what people are doing.

Jayne McCaw
Yeah. I think what Tyler is doing in BC and doing it in some form of provincial group, it just is so much work, right? We're all busy doing our own things, and there are these neighborhood rights associations that are very, very questionable. For instance, I'm quite close to the Oro-Medonte situation, where they have fake names and email addresses and stuff like that to put together a petition that hundreds and hundreds of people that sign, and it's not true.

Heather Bayer
Can I just come back to that? The fake names were for people who were opposing rent regulations.

Jayne McCaw
Who did not want rentals. Yeah, exactly. As we all know, we're all doing our best in the industry. We're all great owners and operators and realize to have a sustainable business, you have to work with all your stakeholders. Anyways, all of the owners are great owners that we have, and they don't have the time or the interest really, in getting super involved. Unfortunately, when we're dealing at the municipal level and you're dealing with voters, that's what's happening is these groups are getting very powerful. Anyways, we do need something because these niche groups are powerful.

Heather Bayer
These niche groups are the ones that are the anti-rental niche groups.

Jayne McCaw
Yes. Yes, they are.

Heather Bayer
It just seems... I find that really weird, and I'll bring Orion and Catherine into this discussion. Doesn't it seem odd that the anti-short-term rental groups seem to be way more powerful than those on the other side, the people who are protecting their businesses, or who need to protect their businesses but are not making their voices heard?

Orion Rodgers
I can take a stab into that one. Yeah. I mean, we've seen this first-hand. We had our legislation announced on the 16th. We quickly mobilized as managers and had a big meeting on the 19th of October. And because of our influence in individual owners and stakeholders, we were bringing 300-400 short-term rental owners to the table, essentially, with all of our portfolios. Out of that managers' meeting, we quickly then moved into how can we move information around as fast as possible and recognize, realizing that so many people just want to be quiet and sit back. They take the ostrich approach, they put their head in the sand. They don't want to be that loud voice that, of course, I've turned into.

Orion Rodgers
But we recognize that there were people with active skill sets that did want to be involved in a capacity, or had bandwidth. I think what's really important is to figure out who are the three or four people that are happy to be the generals and lead the charge, and then find out who can support it. In terms of the anti-movement, BC is interesting. The anti-movement is really just 'the people'. They haven't really formed themselves as a niche group.

Orion Rodgers
They are the collective that are on Reddit. They're the people that comment on CBC news articles down at the bottom. There are enough voices out there, but they do form a voter base, like you said, of some capacity, and they are the opposition. So how can you structure yourself professionally to come up and have an education and awareness outgoing so they can kind of resemble it. because you can knock them off their horse and get them to realize that depending on what municipality where you're in, short-term rentals actually aren't that bad. They're actually doing good for the community in some respect.

Jayne McCaw
I agree with you, Orion. And I think when I found out about the Kelowna mayor getting involved and trying to exempt Kelowna from the BC requirements, because it's a tourist town and he'd rather remain it as a tourist town and exempt it from rentals. I immediately linked out to him on LinkedIn. I reached out to him on LinkedIn and I called his office and left a message. Unfortunately, I didn't hear back, but this is the type of thing that we've got to try to do is unite in these things. And it would be wonderful if it was easy to do it. I don't know what your bandwidth is, but it would be really great to be able to have an opposition that is united across the country.

Orion Rodgers
Yeah, we recognize that we haven't had the right representation for this industry, right? And we had a rezoning in 2017/2018 here in Victoria. We created a little Greater Victoria Short-term Rental Alliance. And as soon as we got a win and we were able to continue, we just fizzled out and everyone went their separate way. And that is the problem with the industry is that it's a bit disbanded. It's individual property owners not underneath a unified message.

Orion Rodgers
We hired a lobbying team on October 21st, essentially, to figure out, how do we talk to these people? What did we say? They said, You need to be all under the same umbrella so that way one person is speaking up or three people, essentially. Having that unified message is the only way that government wants to work with you, because they don't want what we used to call the angry mob of short-term rental owners, raising their pitchforks. They don't want to hear those emails. They'll listen to a couple of them. But what they really want to do is they want to go, Okay, what does this group stand for? What is their mission statement? What is their message? And what's their ask? What are they trying to achieve?

Heather Bayer
Catherine, I know that with your organization of the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference that you've been approaching all these issues, because I know you've had some challenges in getting owners and managers to engage. Share what that's been like and how that is coming along, and if the CanStays Conference is something that will bring these people together under one banner.

Catherine Ratcliffe
Yeah. I think it's a very fair question, because I think a lot of people struggle with imposter syndrome in general. And I think when you start adding in the political element, it's, Am I really capable of reaching out and calling the mayor or calling the premier? Am I capable of doing that? And I think the important piece is to always find the win-win and remember that these are people, too. And yes, I think the government likes to deal with one person. But what you always need to remember is every person that is elected is seeking re-election 99.9% of the time. And figuring out what the win is for them, and I think there are a lot of opportunities to find best practices across the province and say, how did you deal with this situation? How did you overcome this challenge? Because while it can feel like whack-a-mole, it can also be like figuring out a Rubik's Cube. All of a sudden you're like, Oh, now I know the secret to getting from here to there. And the approach to dealing with politicians is very similar across the country. They have similar centers of influence.

Catherine Ratcliffe
And they're not very shy about what their passion projects are. We've talked about that at a couple of VRMA sessions, too. It's very easy to bump into somebody at one of their passion projects. And so if you know that that's a pet shelter, a construction site, a children's crisis center, any of those types of things, you can find your way to avoid the email log if it's going through staffers, and understanding the value of a staffer and how much a staffer can block you. And so the goal of pulling the CanStays Conference together is to get the property managers from across the country to say, How did you do it? Because there are great success stories. I think Ontario has some amazing opportunity to share with other provinces, who think this isn't coming for them, to say, Look, start getting organized today with what are your best practices, what does make sense, who will be the leaders and the voice? Because I think when the fire starts and you're trying to figure out how to get organized, you're still operational. You're still in the middle of those turns and all the rest of it.

Catherine Ratcliffe
It's difficult to do it after the fact, when your back is pressed against the wall. So we really are hoping to have people come in share their success stories. And as Orion said, there are people that have strengths and that are unsung heroes in certain areas, whether that's social media, whether that's copywriting. You have to be able to tell your story, and you have to be able to do it in a very compelling and brief way with politicians. Their bandwidth is not huge in terms of the amount of information they can take in, and it has to always center back to vote or need. How does this impact who votes for them?

Heather Bayer
You made a very good point there, Catherine, when you said you find out what their passion projects are. Rolf Blizzard said, They knock on your doors, go and knock on their door. He also said, Turn up at their kid's baseball game, which I thought was a little bit creepy, but I knew where he was coming from, and you just made it a lot more clear where he was coming from on that, is find out what they're highly interested in and just get there and get their attention that way. I love that.

Catherine Ratcliffe
They're not shy about tweeting where they are and what they're doing, and they always like to be recognized. So you can stroke a politician's ego and have it be a win-win.

Orion Rodgers
I think, too, to comment on that, is something that we've recognized is they appreciate two things, professionalism and they do appreciate persistence, because they come from a place of persistence. So if you engage in that, you think of that as your motto, as you're calling them and leaving voicemails, and you continue with a professional aspect, you don't get angry.  It's just similar to sales, right? You always close out your emails with, Let me know what the best day and time that would work for you so you can fit into their schedule, but you keep the pressure on and you stay persistent. You'd be surprised when they do finally reply, and it is for a meeting, right? And they don't want any more information. They want the meeting. And now you get a chance to really come in with your next step of the sales pitch, right?

Heather Bayer
Jayne, how did you get through to Muskoka Lakes to actually have that relationship now with them where they're involving you?

Jayne McCaw
Well, I just want to go back to this November situation and what's going on in BC and Kelowna and stuff like that. So what we did at the OCRMA, with the help of, I don't really want to say this, with the collaboration of one of the larger OTAs, we ended up writing letters, or I ended up writing letters on behalf of the OCRMA to the Minister of Housing, the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of... So Chrystia Freeland, Kyle, what was the municipal, I think, municipal affairs. And we did it to their special advisors, the minister, their assistants, and one other person.

Jayne McCaw
Then we followed up and we followed up. We got one meeting with the Ministry of Housing, and I've been in touch with this guy since. Kyle Fox is his name, and he understands about the importance of tourism areas and the need for collaboration with the Ministry of Tourism. We need to bring in the Ministry of Tourism to have them work together. I don't know if either any of you guys have read the new tourism main things or their keynote speech for the year, and that is more cross-functional communications with other ministries and being able to really understand support.

Jayne McCaw
And so using that philosophy, I have become quite close to the Township of Seguin, which is where my cottage is, and then also quite close to the Township of Muskoka Lakes. And yeah, I just have good relationships with the mayor and councilors and staff, and I run a big business and I employ a lot of people, and so I do get their ear.

Jayne McCaw
Right Now, we've had some pretty successful sessions. What I'm doing right now on behalf of the OCRMA is trying to redraft the draft legislation to potentially what would fit better to maintain our tourism inventory. Our concern is owners are going to walk if it's getting too onerous, and we're picking on them as being a bad person to rent their property. Where on the other hand, really, thank you very much, because every dollar you spend on a rental, you spend $2 on everything else. So we're trying to get that message across, and we have got that message across in Muskoka Lakes.

Heather Bayer
That's great. I've been down here in Alabama for five months, so really been out of it. It's really interesting to hear what's been going on since I've been away. Kudos to you for just getting in there.

Jayne McCaw
Well, we're redrafting it. Who knows what they/we're going to accept. But yeah. And another thing is we're also going to the past mayor. We have a new mayor here, and we're going to the previous mayor, who is much more supportive, and we're getting his feedback. So again, going to other politicians and stuff like that.

Heather Bayer
So before we wrap up here, I just wanted to ask you all just to give some practical advice to people who are out there who are listening, regardless of whether they're in Canada or Europe or the US. It makes no difference. This advice is pretty much global when you're facing regulations and potential legislation. What practical actions can owners and operators take to become more active in their fight? To go for it.

Orion Rodgers
I can take a stab.

Heather Bayer
Yeah, go on. You take it.

Orion Rodgers
Yeah, I mean, don't sit back and think that anybody is going to save your butt at all. I'm not the biggest operator. I have 30 properties, 30 individual clients, but I feel passionate enough about it because I've built a big livelihood around it. So recognize where you sit in this and maybe reach out. Just because you have another manager in your area, they're not your competitor. It's like realtors. You need to collaborate with other managers, regardless if you've had clients move between the two of you. And start an association, register something, register an NNC that you can create a brand and a unified message under. I think Colorado did a great job of this. There's a couple of places in Oregon as well, California.

Orion Rodgers
Again, professionalism the whole time. It's not an angry mob. Make sure you're professional. You have smart owners in your circle of influence, so to speak. You lean on some of them, get some resources where you can. That's what we did. We have a registered society, we have a registered association, we're member-funded. Everybody has a stake in this. The idea is to create a unified message. Like Jayne said, start getting in touch with people.

Orion Rodgers
Watch a couple of council meetings. You'll easily see, I don't know where you are or if you have that accessibility, if you can watch or attend a live council meeting and spend about an hour watching it, you'll know which councilors are easily approachable. Once you get in there, you've created a wedge in the door, you can build a relationship. The next time they talk to somebody, they could then vouch for you. Then you reach out to another counselor. The first counselor that you have a good relationship with can then share information with the next one, say, Hey, you know what? Orion's a good guy. He really wants to talk to you. Why don't you sit down and have a 10-minute conversation with him?

Orion Rodgers
Take him out, buy him a taco, margarita, whatever you've got to do there to put a smile on his face or convince him to give you his time, or her time of course. Then go from there. You'll never know who you'll end up having a meeting or a phone call with. I've been speaking to chiefs of staff. I've had a meeting with our mayor. I have continual emails and text messages with people in the OTAs and higher up.

Orion Rodgers
I haven't had a great opportunity to speak with top ministers in our provincial government, but I've spoken to all their staff or had emails or replies. I just think that a lot of people think that it's way out of reach. It's not. They're just regular people. You just have to focus your energy and your message and stay consistent. But I think the first thing and the first step is recognizing where you stand in it and if you have the bandwidth, and of course, unifying the message, getting together.

Heather Bayer
So Jayne, what practical actions would you suggest people take?

Jayne McCaw
Yeah, I agree with everything Orion said. I also think that it's important to have a Google check or have Google send you anything that's going on in the STR global world. And so you can breeze through those things and you can be updated. Because a lot of times, to your point, Florida right now is going through something which is a real reversal to where they have been, and Europe and stuff like that. So anyways, it's really good to be staying up on the global picture as well. And you just understand the issue that much better and you can speak to it. So right in line with you, but just keeping up your education.

Heather Bayer
I think that's great advice. And of course, the Rent Responsibly website is a good place to go to. Lots of resources on there. Catherine, what's your advice?

Catherine Ratcliffe
So I completely agree with Orion and Jayne. I think you've got to start from a place of professionalism. I think LinkedIn is really important. A lot of these individuals are on LinkedIn, and an easy way to find out a little bit about them and to start joining any organizations that are out there, whether you're talking about Rent Responsibly, you've got VRMA, FAVR [Florida Alliance for Vacation Rentals], all of the different ones that are throughout your state, your country, your local associations, realizing that these are people, too. And I think you've got...

Catherine Ratcliffe
The professionalism comes in two forms, one in your interaction with them, your social media interaction with them. But also, I think we had a really important message from Kevin Guthrie, who's our executive emergency director here in Florida. And he said, back to the trust factor, they use short-term rentals, too. So if your pictures don't match your listing, if you give them a bad experience, some of this stuff can come from a very personal place. And so understanding when you're a property manager, when you're a host, your experience starts from that LinkedIn profile, that Facebook interaction to the property that you represent in the neighborhood.

Catherine Ratcliffe
Don't be the problem and show up where you need to show up for them. Again, listening to a council meeting, understanding if their passion project is that pet shelter or that crisis center, whatever those things are, being available, it's really important. A lot of times these individuals sign up for things in their local communities because they have to. They have to sit in a community center from 10:00 to 2:00 on a Tuesday, so they can listen to constituents. And you can be the smiling face that brings in a donut or a cup of coffee or something and be the bright spot of that day. And you would be surprised how far that gets you when you need something down the line. It's really not as hard and complex as people make it out to be.

Heather Bayer
I think that's great advice from all three of you. I mean, really, that is really practical. Does anybody want to throw in anything else before we sign off? A message of inspiration, perhaps to anybody that's out there really struggling to imagine what their business going to be like in five years time.

Orion Rodgers
If you put this much effort into your business, why wouldn't you put this much into saving the industry or at least contributing to its success? It's been an interesting evolution from what started in Muskoka, really, with cottages and vacation rentals, true vacation properties, to something like myself in a more urban center like we talked about. But again, it's still the same concept. I'm hosting a wide range of people. Some people are displaced. Some people are on vacation. Some people are needing it for medical treatment. That's a wide range now to offer through this service. So again, if you're willing to build a business and be an entrepreneur around it, take a little 10% of that entrepreneurship and throw it into helping out the industry as a whole.

Heather Bayer
That's great. Very good. Anybody else?

Heather Bayer
That was a great conversation. I'm really touched that you all decided to join us today to give your opinions, your advice, your help, your recommendations. I wanted to leave the last word to Catherine just to tell us about the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference.

Catherine Ratcliffe
Yep. So the conference is going to be in Banff, April 20-22, and it's going to have property managers, operators, owners, industry partners from across the country, as well as folks that have flown in. I think the award goes to Bart Sobies flying in from Australia, the furthest person coming in.

Catherine Ratcliffe
And it's an opportunity to really talk about Canadian content and understanding, yes, the regulatory component, but how to be successful in Canada, looking at the other options, as Orion mentioned, there's a very different opportunity in Canada for how we can market properties and market our businesses and handle our guests from a safety perspective. Canadian safety standards, language regulations, all of that, and environmental opportunities, too.

Catherine Ratcliffe
This is our opportunity to really put our story out there for everybody to learn about. There is no big lobbying arm the way there is for the hotel industry. And so it's incumbent upon every owner, operator, and industry partner to come together and start crafting that story for everyone across Canada. It matters at the polls to show up and have a positive image.

Heather Bayer
Can you just tell us, give us an idea of who's going to be there and who's speaking?

Catherine Ratcliffe
We have a lot of... We have about 28 speakers that are coming in, and they're from all different aspects. Dynamic pricing. We have Justin Ford is going to talk about safety. We have... Operto is going to be there. We've got tracks in French as well. I'm very excited about Philippe, Richard and Danny from WeChalets. We've got a number of folks. We've got the first Canadian I-PRAC certified property coming, John Papa, and he's going to be talking about trust and safety and doing some sessions in French as well.

Catherine Ratcliffe
We have elected officials coming. We announced Minister Dominic LeBlanc, who is coming, Federal Cabinet Minister of Public Safety, [Democratic Institutions] and Intergovernmental Affairs as well. So it's a very unique position given that he has the ability to interact with the provinces as well. And then we've announced Matt Jenner as well. We have more announcements coming in the next few weeks with other government officials. So it's going to be a very packed conference. There is something for everybody, whether you're looking at optimizing your listing. Of course, Airbnb is our title sponsor, they will be there. Nathan Rotman, who's been very active in a lot of the advocacy components, will be there as well. And you'll be there speaking as well.

Heather Bayer
I'll be there. Yeah, I'm very much looking forward to it.

Heather Bayer
Thank you, Catherine. Thank you, Jayne, for joining us from Jayne's Cottages.

Jayne McCaw
You're welcome.

Heather Bayer
And Orion Rodgers, joining us from Property Rights BC. I think this has been a really useful, great conversation. Lots of links going in the Show Notes for those of you listening. And there will be, of course, a link to the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference booking page if you want to order your ticket for that. And I really do encourage you to come. Thank you all. It's been such a pleasure having you with us.

Jayne McCaw
Thank you.

Orion Rodgers
Awesome. Thank you, Heather.

Heather Bayer
Well, thank you to all our panelists there. That really was a great discussion. And regardless of where you are in the world, this discussion is relevant to you. If regulations haven't come to you yet, they are on the way. They're coming. And the advice that Catherine and Jayne and Orion gave at the end, that is as relevant to somebody in Australia as it is to us here in Canada. This is so important that you take those initial steps, you take those actions to to get involved and become part of the action. I do love what Orion said about being professional, about having a common voice and one or two people having that voice rather than a group of people being armed with pitchforks. That is not the way to approach this.

Heather Bayer
I hope that those of you listening who are parts of groups, that you did take a lot away from that. If you want to connect with any of these panelists, with Catherine with Jayne, with Orion, just go to the Show Notes. You can get the connections to the three of them.

Heather Bayer
I hope you will register for the CanStays Rental Alliance Conference. It is not just for Canadians. This is such an important new conference on the circuit. I love the fact that Bart Sobies is coming in from Australia. If Bart can make it from Australia, well, if you're in Washington or you're in Oregon or if you're in Florida, you can fly up to Banff. I can tell you I'm going to Banff for the very first time. I can't wait. It's the most amazing place, apparently, and I really am looking forward to seeing it. If you've never been to Canada or to Alberta, then take the jump, take the leap, buy your ticket, and I'll see you there.

Heather Bayer
So that's it for another week. We are continuing to talk about the deeper pillars of this industry as we go forward. We're talking more about trust, responsibility, hospitality as we go through the next months as the Vacation Rental Formula Business School begins to evolve into its new phase. And you're going to be hearing more about that very soon. But we are making that focus on the pillars of our industry. And I'm looking forward to bringing that to you.

Heather Bayer
So I'm ready for getting back to Canada after my five months down here in Alabama. And I'll be home for a few weeks before heading off to Banff. If you're going to go to Banff, let me know. Make sure we can get together at the conference. It's going to be over three days. We will certainly have time to sit down for a coffee, for a drink, whatever suits. And hopefully, I'll see you there.

Heather Bayer
It's been a pleasure as ever being with you. If there's anything you'd like to comment on, then join the conversation on the Show Notes for the episode at vacationrentalformula.com. We'd love to hear from you, and I look forward to being with you again next week.

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