Heather Bayer

The wealth of tech that's available now is just astounding, just walking the halls at any conference is eye-opening. There's hundreds of vendors vying for your software budget. So how do you choose what's right for you? And how can you filter out the bright shiny ones that inspire and excite, but might not be the best fit for your business? In this episode, John An from TechTape joins me to talk about pain points in tech growth and how to resolve them.

Heather Bayer

This is the Vacation Rental Success Podcast, keeping you up-to-date with news, views, information, and resources in this rapidly changing short-term rental business. I'm your host, Heather Bayer, and with 25 years of experience in this industry, I'm making sure you know what's hot, what's not, what's new, and what will help make your business a success.

Heather Bayer

Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the Vacation Rental Success Podcast. This is your host, Heather Bayer, and as ever, I'm super delighted to be back with you once again.

Heather Bayer

I can't believe that it's been over a year now and I seem to have passed this anniversary. It's over a year since I sold Cottage ink Rental Management and I have not been a property manager for twelve months.  It's been a nice ride, the last twelve months.  I've really enjoyed being a little freer of the issues that surround being the CEO of a property management company, and I realized that once I left it. I had been spending all my days, every day, all my spare time thinking about the business. It was always on my mind. I'd wake up in the morning thinking about it. It would be the last thing that I had on my mind before I went to bed. And I often dreamed about it too. So I have enjoyed the last year.

Heather Bayer

I'm really looking forward to the next five years as we build out the Vacation Rental Formula Business School, which is something that we've been working on so hard. And with our new website nearly, nearly completed, that's going to be the culmination of a year of work and then we can really let that take off. But I have been reflecting a little bit about the 20 years I was a property manager, particularly on the tech side, because there's so much out there now. And you know, when I started in property management back in 2003, we began our operations with spreadsheets.

Heather Bayer

We had a fax machine that was a very busy fax machine and we had telephones and… I was going to say very little in the way of automation. There was nothing in the way of automation. But over the years, software got developed and we built a tech stack that pretty much worked for our business. But it quickly became bloated. And I'm sure some of you listening know what I mean when I talk about your software getting bloated. It gets filled with the underused stuff that often duplicates something that you've already got, but it might just do that little bit extra. So you end up stacking software on top of software that all mostly does the same thing. And I would go to conferences and I'd get taken-in by the bright shiny options for everything from operations to guest services, to accounting, to floor plans, to photography, to owner acquisition. There's something for every single aspect of our business. And you know, that was in the days when the exhibition hall wasn't the size of an aircraft hangar, which it is now. Now you can spend two days at a VRMA conference just talking to the vendors.

Heather Bayer

You don't have to talk to anybody else. You can spend your whole time talking to vendors and you may not speak to them all. It's at once completely awesome and overwhelming. Completely overwhelming. So how do you actually know what you need? What will make your life easier and your business more profitable? And what about all the different property management softwares that promise the Earth? They all promise the Earth and they've all got so many bells and whistles. How do you choose between them? And is there really a one size fits all solution? Lots of questions.

Heather Bayer

In this episode I'm joined by John An of TechTape, who's going to steer me through this maze of overload and tech temptations and help us figure out how to create a tech stack that will be the right fit. So we're going to talk about the proliferation of software options, the common pain points that all managers experience, how to get started on the journey of finding the right software, and how we explore the often confusing world of revenue management options. So, without further ado, let's jump on over to my interview with John An.

Heather Bayer

So I'm super happy to have with me today John An from TechTape, and also a property manager.  So it's a huge welcome to you, John. We met… well, we didn't actually meet in Miami at the Book Direct Show, I think we sort of passed in in the hallways and corridors or whatever and around and about. But we didn't meet until Barcelona a couple of weeks ago and we had a good conversation. And having had that conversation with you, I thought you would be great to come on the show and talk about tech and tech stacks and the pain points we all have as managers. But I wanted to thank you, first of all for coming on and ask you to start off by just telling us how you came into the short-term rental business because you haven't always been involved in it.

John An

No, this is like my fourth or fifth career right now. But as everyone else in this industry has, I went to college and got a degree in short-term rentals. No, I wish…. we all fell into this in one way or another. And so, very long story short, after kind of a regular career. I actually wanted to go out on my own and build my own business. And it was supposed to be a real estate development business. And so I had a real estate… couple of properties that I was developing. And typically when you're developing, cash is always flowing out until you sell. And so I wanted to invest in a real estate asset where there would be monthly positive cash flow. And so that's how I kind of stumbled onto this business. Initially I had managers, but I couldn't find managers who would actually do the job the way I felt it needed to be done. And so little by little, I started sinking deeper and deeper and deeper into this industry. And that's the short version of the story.

Heather Bayer

So where are your properties?

John An

My properties are in Honolulu, Hawaii.

Heather Bayer

Very nice.

John An

And it's not a huge portfolio, but it's a pretty profitable portfolio. Two bedroom, two bath condos. And the way I got into revenue management was these condos were generating on average, consistently over $200,000 US dollars gross on an annual basis. And everyone that I ran into who heard that was just like, you can't do that with a condo. And so with that, I helped some of my local managers make more money. And then soon other folks asked me about revenue management and other markets and that's kind of how I gradually got into that area as well.

Heather Bayer

Well, we're definitely going to come on to revenue management later on, because I've said in many of these episodes and been very transparent, that in my years as a property manager, we never used any revenue management strategies at all. And so many times I tried to get into this and try to understand it, but had difficulty. And it was just in the last couple of years where much more data was available in Ontario, because up until 2017/2018, Airbnb hadn't really hit that part of the world, and most of our bookings were done direct, and I felt we didn't have the data. But anyway, if I was back there now, we would definitely be adopting some different practices.

Heather Bayer

And as I said, we'll come back to that a bit later because I just want to talk about general tech at the moment. It's overwhelming. There is so much out there. And I know when I got to the end of my tenure as CEO of CottageLink Rental Management that I was becoming very confused, very overwhelmed. And I love the bright, shiny things. I'm the one the vendors love.  When I'm walking around the exhibition halls, they can see it in my eyes. It's like, oh my gosh, that's a new bright, shiny thing. I have to have it. But with so much available now, what actually makes an optimal tech stack for a property management company? Is there a formula somewhere that says you need this one, this one, this one, and this one. And they'll all nicely work together. I want this amazing answer.

John An

I think you know the answer already. Let me just preface this by saying it's very interesting, because most real estate industries multi-family, single family hotels and whatnot. They're very slow to adopt technology. And it's very interesting because in the short-term rental industry, like you said, so many people are chasing the shiny new object, right? It's like, oh wow, this technology can solve this and this technology can solve that. And so it's a very vibrant landscape with a lot of very innovative options that the founders create.

John An

I think the problem is, unfortunately, everyone has built their short-term rental business their own way. And because everyone did that, every business is different and every business's needs are different. And so because you have two sides that are variable, right? The technology is all variable as well as the management is all variable. There is no formula at this point. So what I would advocate for is really as simple as possible that fits your business at this point in time is really the optimal stack. I'm actually the opposite of you, Heather. The vendors don't like me because they know that I'm evaluating it, but I'm not going to jump on board.  Right?

John An

And so I'm trying to figure out what they're doing and what's going on. And so I would say there are lots of products that have overlapping features and you might get one and then that feature that it includes might not work for your business, but something else might. And so do you add it on or do you not? And so it's really understanding your business needs first. And I have an approach to, kind of a systematic approach to figuring out at least a core of your tech stack that has been successful for me and for some of my friends and colleagues and clients. But it really does have to be not custom built, but custom suited to your business. And you have to understand your business needs.

Heather Bayer

So is there any software that every business should have?

John An

Well, of course, PMS. I do not advocate using spreadsheets or other, at least not today.

Heather Bayer

Right, well, that's all we had to start with, really.

John An

Yeah, no, at that point that was really kind of how you managed it. Right? And you can keep your calendar up to date. So I would say a PMS again, that suits your business needs. I would say definitely revenue management software. Typically the PMS has some channel integration. So if you're not trying to get on lots of different channels, you may not need a channel manager on top of the PMS.  An operations tool to manage your cleaners and your maintenance. And then one thing that I think lots of people overlook is how you internally communicate amongst your team members, whether it's Slack or some tool so that you're organizing and making sure information is not getting lost. I think that would be kind of the core, core fundamental pieces of tech that you would need.

Heather Bayer

We were working remote in our company since 2015, so it was almost a joy, if you like, when COVID came and all our competitors were just panicking to get people out into their homes and get them all set up and just like well, we've been working with Slack and with Ring Central, and we've been doing this for five years already, so it was very easy. But I completely agree, certainly that one, that connection between all your team members and of course, so many companies now have the remote team members. There's a few, I think maybe in some of the destinations where there is still the office where people come and pick up a key and they come and say hello to people. But would you agree that the majority now are managing really remote workforces?

John An

I think our industry uses offshore or virtual assistants a lot more than many others, at least nascent industries. So most of the operators that I know have some level of remote workforce. Yeah, I would agree with that. And because of that, the internal team communication tools and how that all works is really critical. Using WhatsApp it's nice, but it's just very difficult to use as a distributed team.

Heather Bayer

I think many of us here over this side of the Atlantic find WhatsApp a little bit more challenging than they do in Europe, because it's something that everybody seems to use and I find that a little overwhelming. Just too many messages. Who are they coming from, how it all hangs together? I watched, as you probably did, Daniela Derin's presentation on WhatsApp for Business and it was like it was an ‘AHA' moment that I never knew you could do this with WhatsApp.

John An

It's incredible what she's doing and I wish I could implement it, but because I have a distributed team, I just don't know how I would implement it unless I wanted to be on my computer or something like that. But anyway, what she's doing is amazing.

Heather Bayer

Yes. I will put a link to… because in fact, Damien and Gianpaolo  have now released all the slides from the Book Direct Show. So I will put a link to those slides so you can take a look at them.

Heather Bayer

Okay, so there is no real one size fits all in one stack. That works for everybody. That's not going to happen. But what are most I mean, you talk to a lot of managers and people who are looking after short-term rentals. What do you find are the common pain points? What are the pain points that everybody appears to have in their tech growth?

John An

There are some very specific and then some common or generalities. I think in terms of specific feature sets right now, I don't think there's very good solutions for trust accounting and accounting. There are solutions, and I'm not saying they're not good, but it's an aspect within our industry where even when you use the tech, you typically need to hire a consultant to manage that tech. And then it actually starts becoming more expensive than just having a bookkeeper or just having an accountant do it. And then the business analytics side, a lot of the PMS have a lot of data, but the data, for whatever reason, is not very accurate. It's off. And so I think those are two areas that I think could use some more development in terms of the technology. But the more general aspect I would say is the pain point is that there are two sides. There are either people who just settle with the technology that they have and they just accept that it's not working for them because it's too painful to switch, or there are people who pursue perfecting that two, three, four features that they really want, get it, and then they break everything else that had been working for them.

John An

It's true, because the two PMS might have the same feature set, but the way it's implemented can work for one business and not the next one might not. And so I think I see people either settling or breaking things because of their pain points, what specific issues they are that changes. But that's really the pain point that I went through myself. I've switched PMS more than 15 times. I did a lot of brain damage and I was refusing to settle. And then that's what brought me to where I am now.

Heather Bayer

How come you changed so many times?

John An

Because I kept on trying to find…., okay, now this is working. Now I want a solution for this. And then I would find it and then the messaging would be all off because it doesn't function the way I was accustomed to. Now I want a mobile app so that I can control everything. And I kept on. I thought that the perfect solution was out there. And this is about six, seven years ago. And to this day…., eventually we may get closer to a perfect solution. But as of now and within the next two, three years, I don't see that happening.

Heather Bayer

You make a great point there. Everybody's out there looking for that perfect solution because you're investing a lot of money into a property management software. There's a lot of money and a lot of time. And every so often I will recall the time in our company that we did go for all the bells and whistles and we thought it was the perfect solution and we got right the way through to launching it. And within two weeks we just rolled back to what we originally had, which was our homegrown system. Because our homegrown system was so much better. We lost a lot of time, we lost a lot of dollars on that one. And then we ultimately did go on and find another one. It was a very simple software that served our purpose. But I think the last four years, four or five years before we sold the business, we were doing demos every month or so, sometimes doing the demos two or three times. And it was all very exciting, but we just never got to pulling the lever and saying, we're actually going to go for this, because there is nothing out there that is going to give you absolutely everything that you want. And even if you want a dozen simple things, it's likely that one or two of them won't be there. And I know the whole trust accounting issue is high on everybody's agendas. You want that to be built in and that is a tough one.

Heather Bayer

So let's stay on this topic of property management systems because it's a really laborious process. As I said, you've done it many times. I did so many demos. So choosing a new system, it's open to errors of judgment and it's definitely open to falling into the bells and whistles trap. And I would definitely say, at the risk of the ire of the vendors, don't just go to a conference and talk to the salespeople and go for it. After that, you've got to sit back in your office with the people that matter to you to go through the demos and do it in detail, because you can. So easy to fall into the bells and whistles trap. So how would you advise somebody who's thinking, I really need to take the next step and either change my property management software or go from what I've been doing on my own, maybe with a homegrown system into something that's customized?

John An

Yeah. So I actually do have a framework that people can use generally to guide the process. So the first and most important point, and I'll preface this by saying I am tech neutral, so this one PMS is better than another. Again, because one could be great for one person and one could be terrible for another. The same thing could be terrible for another. But the first step is not to start asking around for recommendations from people that you trust and just saying, hey, what are you using? That's great. And it may work really well for them, but that does not mean that it's going to work well for you. So I would not go through asking ten friends and then whichever one pops up the most and use that. That's not the way to do it.

Heather Bayer

I see this on Facebook groups all the time.

John An

I do all the time.

Heather Bayer

Yeah, I want to change my software and everybody jumps in with something different.

John An

Exactly. So the process that I've developed again through the 15 shifts that I've done, the first filter is identify for yourself the channels that you absolutely, absolutely need to be on and make sure that whichever PMS that you're selecting has a tight, tight integration with those channels that you need to be on. If it's not on it right now, don't trust them saying, oh, it's Q2  of……… Never, never trust the roadmap. So it just has to have that tight integration at that point in time. If you're looking for channels outside of Airbnb, Vrbo, Booking.com, Expedia, that will really filter down what you need or what you need to be looking at. So once you've done that, then sit back and identify the top three or four features that are absolute ‘must haves' for your business and really focus on those three, four features. And that's what you're demo-ing for. You're demo-ing for the things that you know your business needs and then you're comparing how they differ between the different systems and then expect every other feature to be horrible for you. You might be pleasantly surprised and it might work for you, but just go into it knowing that all the other bells and whistles that, oh, and if you act now, you'll also get features C, D, E, F and G.

John An

Just expect those to be horrible and just say, can I live with those features being horrible? You're managing your own expectations and making sure that you're getting the software that absolutely meets your needs. And like I said, don't trust that feature is in the roadmap. That's a way for a sales guy to get his commission. That's not a way to select software. And then the last thing, and this is very important, the new company will always say, okay, on such and such date, that will be the transition date. And you will turn your old software off and we will turn everything on and everything will be hunky-dory. It never will be. And so what you have to do is basically it's a ramp-on and ramp-off strategy. You test a couple of features at a time, you don't let them turn the old one off, and make sure that your team, you and your team are all hands on deck during that period of transition and know that things are going to fall apart and you're going to have to manually fix things as you're transitioning.

Heather Bayer

Those are such great points, really good points. I love the idea of just expecting the add-ons and the extras to be horrible.

John An

I've been through it so many times.

Heather Bayer

But the thing is, it's often that those are the ones that draw you in because everybody's probably doing the same for those main things you want and then you've got, oh, they do this and they do that, and this is all going to be perfect. So I think that's a great way of approaching it to say, okay, if these things work well, that's all well and good, but let's expect them not to be great.

John An

Yes, I'm all for managing expectations, both of guests and for myself and my team. And so just go in expecting horrible yeah.

Heather Bayer

I don't have anywhere near the experience that you do of all these transitions. I can't imagine it because I know the pain that we went through when we did the… not the last one, but the previous one, and it was horrible. Sleepless nights. And then, of course, when they did press the button and everything rolled over and then we had crickets for three days. Not a single inquiry. And of course, we'd chosen exactly the wrong time of year to do it as well. We started looking for our software, and I think this is an important one. We started looking for our software at the end of a season, so it's all nice and quiet. The end of the season, let's start looking. But the problem with that was, by the time we'd gone through the onboarding and implementation phase and got to the launch, it was just the beginning of a new season. It's going to take six months at least. And yeah, my advice would be if you're going to start looking at new software, look at it at the beginning of the season so you can start putting it in place when you're quiet.

John An

Exactly. One comment I just want to have on that. This whole topic is the problem and issues. That the pain point of transitioning. It's very predictable. It's just everyone does it once or twice, and so everyone is making the same mistake over and over again in a distributed way. Right? But the knowledge, the process is there. And so if you can help manage expectations on that process, it actually shouldn't be as painful. It is painful, but it shouldn't be as painful as most people have it, because it's their first time.

Heather Bayer

So what are those expectations that you should have?

John An

Like I said, well, you mentioned about the timing, right? I mentioned that it's not like we're going to flip this off and turn it on because that's what everyone runs into. Right? And then multiple things fall apart at the same time. And you've been told everything's going to be exactly the same. Right? This is very important. You need to actually have a data backup before you start, because most of your historic data is not going to transfer. So you have to take it upon yourself to make sure you have access to your historic data. But these are all things that are predictable if you've run into the pain point once or twice or 15 times.

Heather Bayer

Yeah, I would never have wanted to run into it more than once, let alone 15. Okay, that's some really good advice. I want to move on to revenue management now, because as I said, this is something that we should have implemented so many years ago. And I've spoken to so many people on this podcast where I've mentioned it to them. Andrew McConnell, for one. Andrew comes onto the podcast once or twice a year and just about every time that he did that, he told me, you are leaving money on the table.  He would come on in January because usually Andrew is my very first guest of the year and we talk about what's happened in the previous year and what's coming. And I would say, hey, we are just fully booked for the summer. He said that is not a good thing to happen. And I'm thinking, yes it is, our owners are happy.  He said, no, no, no, no, you've just left so much money on the table. Took me a long time to really appreciate that, that it wasn't necessarily a good thing to be fully booked six months in advance.

John An

Yes.

Heather Bayer

So tell me about why we should have done this. And any small company out there that's perhaps thinking about this now, why should they be taking it really seriously?

John An

Right? So before, in the beginning of the podcast, you said you didn't have a revenue management strategy. You actually did have a strategy.

Heather Bayer

Set it and forget it?

John An

Well, no, you had your seasonal peaks, right? You had your weekday, weekend. You knew your market, right? And so not having the data, you still had a strategy, you just had to manually implement it. And because of that, it was very limited. But you did have a strategy, otherwise you would have had one flat price all across a year and just wait for bookings to come in. So you did have a strategy.

Heather Bayer

That makes me feel better.

John An

No, you definitely did. And you knew your market inside and out in terms of the trends, the overall trends that you anticipate, right? So that's the foundation of a strategy, understanding your market and knowing when to go up, when to go down, and adjusting. Now we have dynamic pricing software which ingests a lot more data and information and helps you refine and implement that strategy at a much higher level. And so tools like PriceLabs, Wheelhouse. Beyond [Pricing] those are tools. And when you implement it, most people will see a bump in their revenue because it's being more responsive to the market. But they are still tools. And my analogy is those are like F1 race cars, right? But you still need a driver if you want to win the Grand Prix, right? So those tools help and make it a lot easier to get the data and be responsive. And then on top of that, if you add a revenue manager who's actually using the tool, driving that car, that's how you actually win the race. Right? And I know over the past two years we've had an amazing boom in our market, in our industry, and so many managers are like, oh my God, I'm 30% higher than last year.  This is amazing.

John An

While there are markets where people are saying that and other folks were 70%, 80%, 90% higher, and so you were leaving a lot of money on the table. So now we're getting to a point where there's a software and revenue management as a discipline, as a discipline within the short-term rental industry is starting to formulate. I think Emily Pattillo and Jordan Locke and some other folks are…. Sarah Franzen…. have already started an organization for revenue managers in the short-term rental industry. And so that's kind of happening so that it becomes a formal discipline. But really, I would say if you're not taking revenue management seriously, you're not only doing you and your business a disservice, you're doing your owners a huge disservice because you are not maximizing their asset. So I think every manager really needs to take revenue management as a serious part of their business.

Heather Bayer

So where do they start? How does a small manager start looking at choosing what's right for their business? Because you've pointed out that the software is one thing, but actually having somebody to drive that software is another. And that begins to add to the expense when the smaller property managers are on a budget.

John An

So the first step is to get on a reputable software, right? So get the car, buy the car, right. You have to have a car to start driving it. And depending on how much involvement you want, different tools can produce different results. So again, I'm Tech agnostic. Any one of those tools that I mentioned, and I'm sure there are others, are fine. When you hire a revenue manager by bringing on that tool, you should anticipate making more money and not as that tool as an expense, but as a revenue generator. Right? And then when you bring on a revenue manager, that revenue manager should also be making you more money than if you were just using the software. So it's not an expense. And if that's not happening, then you should be finding a different driver, a different revenue manager. The revenue management also has to be aligned with your market, but also your risk profile. Right? If you really want to try to maximize your revenue, you might take some more risky decisions and at the end of the year make more money. If you want to kind of straight out, like kind of, get consistent three, four months booking in advance, then they're probably not going to make you that much more money, right?

Heather Bayer

Yes.

John An

And those are the kind of things that you need to understand as you're hiring. But a revenue management software and revenue manager should be a value-add to your business and not an expense. And then on top of that, it should save you and your team a lot of time. So those are the ways that a revenue manager should be adding value to your business.

Heather Bayer

It's interesting, a couple of things that you said because I think you have been following the Ten Mistakes series that Brooke Pfautz has been…..

John An

I'm still waiting for Brooke to ask me now.

Heather Bayer

And then there's a couple of them that have come up over and over again. And one of them is, and I think I wrote that in my list, was one of my mistakes was going for the lower cost option and missing out on the benefits. I would have got to invest in something that was really going to work to push the business forward. And I think this is probably what we did with revenue management. We did adopt some practices. We'll raise the rate for the last week of July and the first week of August because we know they're so popular. As you said, we did have a strategy, it was a very basic strategy, but we did that probably to the detriment of of actually maximizing our potential if we'd actually bought into revenue management and hired somebody to do it properly for us. The other question that… and I can't remember…. I think it was Steve Schwab on this morning's list, and he made a mention of something I hadn't seen before. And that was never be afraid of asking the basic questions and never be afraid of saying that you don't have the knowledge because you fear being judged.

Heather Bayer

And I think that's what I used to do. So I'm asking you this now because I don't care about being judged anymore, about the difference between revenue management and data. I see companies like Transparent and AirDNA and Key Data on the one hand, and then there's Wheelhouse and Beyond and PriceLabs and Rented. What are the differences? Because you need the data to operate the revenue management side of it. So do you have to bring in that data stuff as well?

John An

I will answer that. Can I just make one comment on the previous point that you made?

Heather Bayer

Yes.

John An

You said bringing in revenue management and you probably could have increased your revenue. When you're going to sell a company, your company is based on the revenue that it's generated or the multiples of that revenue. Right? And so that's another area where if you're thinking about exiting within the next one, two, three years, you should really be taking your revenue management very seriously, because on the multiples, it could actually mean a substantial amount. It's kind of a holistic picture overall.

John An

On the data, you bring up a very good point and this is something that I've been kind of pushing in my talks and everything. Our industry loves technology and so everyone talks about we're data driven, we're data driven, we have Transparent, we have Key Data, we mash it together. All the data is very important, but data should only be used at this point to inform our decisions. So it can be as much data that you can actually digest and understand and make informed decisions on and not the more data that you have, the better it is. So what I would say is tools like PriceLabs, Wheelhouse, Beyond ingest data to kind of not hide, but to make the systems work. Right? So there is a lot of data in those tools, in and of themselves, but they're primarily there to help make sure that those tools are functioning, to respond to demand, demand patterns and whatnot. And that's good for that tool.

John An

Now, if you start going to AirDNA, Key Data, Transparent and those types of data providers, they have a vast array of different types of data. And so now within there you could get more refined information on your marketplace or your comps and whatnot. And so it really comes down to what information can you ingest to make informed decisions? And actually, if you have too much data, I think there are many studies that show that it hinders, or you end up making worse decisions because you get paralyzed. Right?

Heather Bayer

Yes.  I've got an analogy here. Well, it's not an analogy, it's a sort of comparison. I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago and went to a restaurant and they brought out the menu, which was a book, and there were probably 30 pages in this book and I was paralyzed. We didn't eat there because I couldn't make up my mind. I think that's sort of an analogy for what you're talking about here.

John An

Right. So now if you have the technology or the team of data scientists to ingest it and be able to process it to inform your decisions, that's great. But most property managers don't have a data science team. And so that's where then you want to kind of adjust the data to a level that you can digest and make informed decisions on. That's my point of view.

Heather Bayer

I was in Berlin in a restaurant with my data scientist daughter. I should have asked her that question. What should I choose from this menu.

John An

Please, for me, and give me the top three KPIs so that you could choose which dish to order.

Heather Bayer

Exactly. Okay. So really choice of revenue managers is just ….. I've spoken to all of them and I love the guys that run every one of them from PriceLabs and Beyond and Wheelhouse. They're just amazing teams. So when it comes down to choice, is there a formula for choosing the right one or do you just go with….. when I used to go for a realtor to sell one of my houses, I'd go for the one with the nicest picture.

John An

Right. I would not necessarily choose a tool like this based on the nicest picture as the only criteria, although the nice pictures can help you ingest the data, so that can be an important factor. Of those three tools, I think each has their pros and cons. And I shared this directly with Andrew Kitchell and Ryan Saylor. But I think Beyond Pricing, they make it so that it's as simple as possible to kind of set it and forget it and trust the algorithm. To someone like myself, that's challenging, because being able to pull different levers when different things happen is something that is important to me. But there are many managers who want to just literally set it and forget it and do better than what they were doing before. And I think that Beyond makes it really easy to do that and achieve great results. PriceLabs has a lot of levers that you can pull/tweak, and so it actually gets very confusing. And sometimes if you have two different settings, it could override each other and you don't get the results that you want, but it does give you a lot of levers.  So if you know how to use it, it gives you a lot that you can…. it's like gymnastics, right?

Heather Bayer

Yes.

John An

And Wheelhouse is similar in that way. PriceLabs is also integrated with a lot of different platforms and that makes it so that you can pretty much use it anywhere. Wheelhouse has a lot of levers as well. Wheelhouse's, I think, strong point is the visualization of the data. It makes it really easy to digest what's going on and compare your performance to the market. And so again, Switzerland -neutral, I have used and I use all three of those tools depending on the situation, but there is no formula for which one you choose. But I think I kind of highlighted some of the pros and cons of the three pick ones.

Heather Bayer

I know if I was back in charge, I don't know how I would go about choosing, because certainly from the basis of a property manager who's not used to this and who is just going to the conferences and just going to the booths. I love them all. Maybe that's why I never did it. Beyond was our sponsor of the podcast for two seasons and I learnt a lot, in fact, because we were doing very short pieces in the middle of each episode, which was a question: what questions are you asked by your clients when they're coming to you to look for solutions? And I think it was Ryan Saylor who was on for each one of those ten questions and that really opened my eyes to what was available. And then I just love how PriceLabs market themselves. And I spent ages talking to Andrew in Barcelona and I don't know, I'm going to be Switzerland too, but I think Deborah Labi has probably talked to all three of them in her Techsplained Series, so I'll make sure there's a link to that, that people can go and take a look at.

Heather Bayer

Anybody interested in Beyond, we still have a good interview with one of Beyond's clients on Vacation Rental Formula, so I'll put a link to that as well, if you are if you are out there looking for revenue management options.

Heather Bayer

So, John, where do you think…. I mean, everything's moving so fast. So, so fast. With AI and just what's out there in the changing world of technology now, where do you see the tech side of this industry going in the future?

John An

Yes, AI is the hot topic right now, not just in our industry, across every industry, but taking a step back, Francois Gouelo from Enso [Connect]and I just in Barcelona, had a presentation on kind of the fragmented tech stack or technology landscape in our industry. So there are multiple ways that it can go. So one is consolidation through acquisition. So big companies buying up smaller companies, and a lot of people wish for that so that you would have one product that does everything. But I say be careful what you wish for because then your options get limited and you basically end up with Microsoft and Google as your only option for your top software tech stack. The other is marketplaces within the PMS that they've made partnerships or whatnot and they're displayed within the PMS, but that basically makes the PMS kind of the arbiter of what is and is not your option. There's a white labeling where you can kind of bring things together and use other people's technology in a very integrated way. Again, the PMS becomes the arbiter. And then for the time being, the one that I'm working with and I'm excited about is the semi-custom build using no code or low code solutions like the Zapier and things of that nature.

John An

And what that enables you to do is to kind of cherry pick the best solutions that works for your business. And then, not that everything is possible, but you should be able to kind of semi-customize workflows that sit in parallel to your tech stack that is working for most of your needs. And so I think within the next two to three years, I think it'll be somewhere between consolidation is going to happen, right? I mean, private equity, that's going to happen, but I think there's going to be a very interesting aspect of the semi-custom build. And the reason why I'm even more excited about it is because AI makes these no code, low code options even more accessible to normal human beings and you don't have to be a developer in order to access it. So I do see this area growing as well. I don't know if it's going to take over, but I think it's a way for the fragmentation to kind of settle down a little bit while still having a lot of vibrant options for managers to choose from.

Heather Bayer

Well, I think that whatever happens, the proliferation of software is not going to slow down any. So for any of you who are planning on going to VRMA International in Orlando or even to the DARM Conference in Nashville, I think in December, you will get to see all of these options out there. Because all the major players are going to certainly be at Orlando, and a lot of them are going to be in Nashville. So get in touch with John if you're not sure what you should be doing. And on that topic, John, just to wrap up, tell us about TechTape and what you actually do.

John An

Yeah, so TechTape, we have three core services. One is we provide revenue management services. So we use Wheelhouse, PriceLabs, Beyond, all the tools that you have available. And so we are the drivers of these software. We build and maintain semi-customized solutions for clients to solve their very specific integration tech needs within their tech solution. And then we do provide some, I call it owners rep services, for folks who are transitioning between PMS, because again, we can make it a less painful process. So those are the three tech related services that we provide, and it's all based on as a property manager experience and the pain points that we've experienced and have been able to solve.

Heather Bayer

I think if I was still in property management, I would be reaching out to you because making those choices can be very, very expensive, particularly if you make the wrong ones. So I think having somebody alongside to help you make those decisions is a really good thing. So, yes, get in touch with John. There will be information on the Show Notes as to how to get in touch with him, and I am sure he will do a good job for you.

Heather Bayer

John, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've really enjoyed this. And I have to say that when I was in the business of running a property management company, I was sort of up there looking down, looking at strategy, and not really getting involved in the detail of how it all happened. And to make a confession, for the last four years of being in the business, I don't think I ever logged into our property management software.

John An

It's a good thing for you.

Heather Bayer

Yeah.  I didn't know how to use it, but everybody else seemed to manage it and all the reservations went through and everything was pretty darn cool. But yes, this sort of conversation would probably have not been easy for me a few years ago. Now I'm out of it. It just seems to be like a walk in the park.

John An

Of course.

Heather Bayer

Anyway, thank you so much for joining me. I hope everybody's got some really good information from John and that you'll get in touch with him if you have any questions. I hope that's okay. I'm just throwing that out there.

John An

Yes, of course. LinkedIn is probably the best way to find me if you don't have my info, but thank you, Heather. This was amazing. A lot of fun, and I look forward to meeting up with you at another conference.

Heather Bayer

Oh, I'm sure we will. I'm sure. Well, it'll be Orlando and then Nashville for me. I'll see you there.

John An

Thank you, Heather.

Heather Bayer

Thank you so much. John. That was a great conversation and yes, seriously, get in touch with him because we got to a point where we knew we needed stuff, but was the stuff we needed going to be the right fit for our business, or was the stuff that I thought we should have the right stuff for our business? And I know over time we did bloat our software because I fell for some bells and whistles and it would have been very nice to have somebody to call on to say, hey, do you think this software would work for us? Would it work with us, with our property management software? Is it something we should be looking at? So yes, I think this vacation rental world needs more people to be out there as the drivers. I love that analogy, the Formula One buy the car, but you've got to have a good driver to go with it as well. So hope that helped you, hope you got some really good value out of that. Let me know if you've got any questions or if you've got comments on this whole issue of property management, whole issue of the tech stack because it's gone crazy from this tiny little stack we had back in 2003 to the potential of what you could have in 2023.

Heather Bayer

That's it for this week. As ever, I've had such a lovely time bringing you yet another exceptional episode, because I think it's an exceptional episode. Really enjoyed talking to John and hope you enjoyed it too.

Heather Bayer

It's been a pleasure as ever being with you. If there's anything you'd like to comment on, then join the conversation on the Show Notes for the episode at vacationrentalformula.com. We'd love to hear from you and I look forward to being with you again next week.